Daily Kos

Saving capitalism for a dying planet: a theory

Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 04:56:23 PM PDT

Here's the theory, DKosers.  There is an elite consensus around the notion of "saving capitalism for a dying planet."  The idea is that if "growth" (which we desperately want and need if we are to maintain our positions as representatives of capital) is to continue, planetary concerns for the future will have to be ignored, even with reckless oil and coal consumption levels causing a runaway greenhouse effect.  That is what is behind the G8 agreement, so wonderfully diaried by Devilstower.

(Crossposted at European Tribune and Booman Tribune)

OK, who are the actors?  First, you have the global warming deniers: at the top of the bill there should be the folks who run Exxon Mobil: they are the meat-and-potatoes behind the "scientific" cottage industry that is global warming denial.  Second, you have the Bush administration, correctly blamed by Al Gore for having made the G-8 agreement into a pledge to "seriously consider" greenhouse gas emission cuts.

Of course, there are various shades of denial on this one.  Outright attempts to debunk the global warming thang even exist among those on the so-called "left," namely Alexander Cockburn, whose arguments are nicely debunked by Joshua Frank.  But then there's the "acceptance-as-denial" crowd: asked by scientists to consider the prospects of massive environmental damage, they endlessly repeat: "We'll think about it."

We now have scientists claiming that the Earth's climate is approaching a tipping point beyond which we have a runaway greenhouse effect.  And that's not to mention the other "tragedies of the commons" which the capitalists have created.  Sure, there aren't a ton of DKos diaries about overfishing, but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen.  Leakey and Lewin, in The Sixth Extinction, estimate that species are now disappearing about 1000 times as fast as they were before human beings existed (with the exception, of course, of other brief periods of mass extinction in natural history).  Today we are essentially urbanizing other creatures out of existence.  Eventually this stuff will catch up with us.

Meanwhile, there appears to be a correlation, hinted at in UN figures, between economic growth and increased use of fossil fuels.  This won't be good news if, as Jerome hints, we are near the Peak Oil peak.  Once profligacy in oil use is not longer an option in economic growth, economies will see contractions, and this will be the primary form of "oil shock" that can be expected to occur.  

Meanwhile, our Senate wastes its time on jokes like Coal-to-oil conversion.  I really dug the NYT chart that explains this issue so concisely.  

The reader needs to take a look at this stuff and ask, long and hard, "what are they thinking?"  The fact of the matter is that capitalist growth is not consistent with rational policy about fossil-fuel burning.  The world burned 85 million barrels of oil per day in 2005, with a general 2% yearly uptick in that number.  More deeply, as Paul Prew pointed out, "capitalism must expand its operations if it is to survive":

Capitalism is based solely on the logic of ceaseless accumulation of capital (Marx 1981b: 352-3; Marx and Engels 1964: 63; Wallerstein 1983b: 17-8, 1999: 78). Accumulation is the engine of dissipation. For capitalism, accumulation is the mechanism that orders the social world. It is the process around which the rest of the relations are organized. To argue that accumulation is the engine of dissipation is not to say that accumulation is unilinearly determinate, but the logic of capitalism, accumulation, is the singular process that all other relations are somehow forced to conform. The way in which accumulation occurs, or the speed at which accumulation takes place, etc. may be changed by social relations, but the logic remains the same - accumulate greater sums of wealth at the end of the working day than the capitalist had at the beginning. Although the logic of capitalism orders our existence, it at the same time is also the very same mechanism that generates tremendous amounts of entropy and waste. The amount of entropy generated by the capitalist system must, by its very logic, increase as a result of accumulation. Accumulation is not the accumulation of a steady state of materials and wealth, a finite pie so to speak. It is an ever increasing accumulation. The pie must always expand.

The pie must always expand; but the world stays the same size, and thus you have a conflict of interests here.  Capitalism or a habitable planet: you can't have both.

This expansion will definitely mean "alternative fuels," which vary in their ethicality, but it will also pose a real hindrance to the idea that the rest of the world's oil shouldn't be pumped and burned at its current 85-million-bbl./day rate.  Nobody is going to substitute "alternative fuels" for the CO2 burning type: they will simply be a supplement to what the world currently uses.

So what are they thinking?  They are caught in a conflict of interest.  The public must be shooed away with empty promises of action; and capital (which they really represent) must be placated with real-life inaction.  The industry perspective on this, industry being the dominant behind-the-scenes actor in this drama, is well-captured by Josee Johnston in her essay in the book Nature's Revenge:

What the case of a "sustainable" mining industry reveals is how the sustainability discourse works to maintain and legitimize an overall system goal of economic growth.  Once a few minor adjustments are made to account for the most noxious externalities, such as untreated sulphur dioxide emissions, the global economy can feel free to grow exponentially.  Here the sustainable-development discourse works to facilitate commodification and capital accumulation by mandating sustainable profits over the long term. (45)

Here's what readers need to take away from example industries like a "'sustainable' mining industry."  If Earth is to be protected by a global, ecologically-sustainable society, then its current world government (never mind the propaganda that suggests that there is "no such thing") is going to have to make a series of moves which will run directly counter to the "profit motive" that maintains its individual members in their positions of power.  In short, excess production will have to disappear, as it is too consumptive.  Mining industry executives want profit?  Too bad, the governments must tell them, look for other jobs -- but they don't.  Yeah, dig that coal-to-oil.

The political class's current resolution of the role conflict that mandates of ecological sustainability place upon them is to ignore the mandates, and take the money, under the expectation that other, similiarly-coopted, political classes can be hired to take their places.  They are, in short, saving capitalism for a dying planet through their actions.  We should call them on it, in just those terms.

In a previous diary I suggested that, if we are to pursue a "war of position" against the Right, we must learn to distinguish leadership from membership in the political class.  And we need to be able to make this distinction, this crucial intellectual and social move, this year.  Otherwise we will spend all of next year doing nothing but cheering on (name your leading contender; okay, Hillary) against the evils of (name your favorite Repub fraud).  It will be a colossal waste of time, not to mention who knows how many billions of barrels of crude oil.  In short, people must stand up and be counted for the idea of NOT saving capitalism for a dying planet.

The eventual goal, of course, will be to create an economic system which satisfies real human need, as opposed to "effective demand."  That will take awhile -- for now, we need to know when our politicians are saving capitalism for a dying planet.

Poll

Are they saving capitalism for a dying planet?

66%24 votes
11%4 votes
13%5 votes
5%2 votes
2%1 votes

| 36 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: environment, economy, capitalism (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 64 comments

  •  A better model (7+ / 0-)

    We need to find one fast. Human inertia being what it is, I can see very clearly that we won't find it in time. Not unless we get really lucky.

    Outstanding diary and I'm sending it to the rescue rangers in case it doesn't make the rec list. Deserves it.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:02:24 PM PDT

  •  Good diary, but we have Two Viable Parties (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Bob Love

    Cassiodorus, thanks for a comprehensive, well researched diary.

    One observation.

    We have two viable parties.  A center-left Democratic Party, and a RightWing extremist Republican Party.

    We also have a presidential (not parliamentary) system with an electoral college.  The systems depends on hundreds of millions of dollars.  The Democratic nominee, whoever that may be, will need to spend over 500M dollars just to be competitive.

    The financial community, in Manhattan and Silicon Valley, gives a significant amount of money to Democrats.

    Democrats can't, and shouldn't, alienate the financial community.

    There ARE significant differences between the two parties, and two much is at stake for Democrats to alienate the financial community.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

    by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:05:10 PM PDT

    •  I hear significant differences in what they say.. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SarahLee, Cassiodorus, Demi Moaned

      I fail to see it in what they actually do.

      Instead of appeasing the financial community, I would suggest excluding private money from the system entirely.  

      100% public campaign financing at greatly reduced and restricted levels.

      "The truth shall set you free - but first it'll piss you off." Gloria Steinem

      Iraq Moratorium

      by One Pissed Off Liberal on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:10:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  HUGE differences b/w Democrats and Extremist GOP (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        debedb, One Pissed Off Liberal

        It never ceases to amaze me how quickly Democrats forget how President Clinton was treated by the RightWing financial community.

        Don't you recall how they branded him a sociaslist and communist in the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal.

        What about Investors Business Daily arguing that President Clinton's increase in the top marginal rate, to 39%, was going to trigger a global capitalist meltdown.

        Just yesterday, Robert Rubin, the most successful Treasury Chief since Hamilton, called for a tax increase on the carry portion of private equity gains.

        ----------------------------------
        http://www.bloomberg.com/...

        Rubin Says Fund Managers Should Pay Higher Tax Rates (Update1)

        By Ryan J. Donmoyer

        June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Congress should more than double tax rates for many hedge fund managers and private equity partners who classify their pay as capital gains, former Treasury secretary Robert Rubin said.

        The Clinton administration official, speaking in Washington at a conference on tax reform hosted by the Hamilton Project, said fund managers are paid to perform services. Their share of future profits earned by managing other partners' money, called ``carried interest,'' probably should be taxed at rates as high as 35 percent, like normal salaries, instead of the 15 percent rate for capital gains, they said.

        ``One very good argument is to be made for treating it as ordinary income,'' said Rubin, now chairman of the executive committee at Citigroup Inc. Fund managers are ``basically performing a service,'' he said.

        The 15 percent tax rate paid on carried interest by many fund managers is attracting congressional attention as lawmakers search for revenue to pay for spending priorities at a time when many fund executives reap billion-dollar paydays for a single year's work.

        Lawrence Summers, who succeeded Rubin as Treasury secretary, said he was also concerned that some fund managers are able to abuse tax laws to convert some forms of income that should be taxed at higher rates into capital gains.
        ---------------------------

        There are HUGE differences between the two parties.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

        by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:17:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Far right and center-right (3+ / 0-)

          That's how I see them. But my perspective is an international one. I know both parties are big tents with a broad spectrum of opinion but being born and raised outside the USA, I look at the Democratic party and see much that is center-right and very little that would be termed "center-left" in any other Western democracy. It seems the center of gravity in US politics is in international terms, solidly right-wing.

          There have been much time since World War II when the Democratic party has had control of the House and/or the Senate and/or the White House, but I cannot think of any point in that period where American policy on foreign intervention, military spending, welfare, health, taxation, education and other issues could be considered even remotely close to "center-left" as the term is used in other nations.

          •  Thank You! (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            retrograde, Cassiodorus

            It is truly sad what passes for progressive electoral options in this country. The Dems are definitely a center-right party by any reasoanable international standard. And since the outcome of US elections is felt by the whole world the international standard is the one that matters the most.

            The question isn't whether or not there is a difference between the Dems and Repubs or even whether its a large one. The question is whether the politics of the DEms are now or potentially adequate to the challenges facing our society. I submit that they are not. There are many reasons for this (the winner take all system, the power of finance, etc...) butthe imporant thing is that the sort of changes that are most urgently needed can not be obtained through the reliance on "established channels." They require mass militant extra-electoral social movements that are willing and able to threaten the survival of existing social and political arrangements.

            Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
            "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

            by Christopher Day on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 07:10:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Saving capitalism for a dying planet (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      yoduuuh do or do not

      There ARE significant differences between the two parties, and two much is at stake for Democrats to alienate the financial community.

      Is this a "yes" vote for "saving capitalism for a dying planet"?  Or does it contain a rationale for a "no" vote?

      "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

      by Cassiodorus on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:18:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Working within the System (0+ / 0-)

        Cassio, I believe that Democrats are very eco-sensitive, and are doing everything they can to save the planet.  In fact, John Doerr, arguably the most successful venture capitalist ever, burst into tears recently, as he described the Earth.

        http://venturebeat.com/...

        When John Doerr spoke at the Ted conference in March, he broke into tears at the end of a 20-minute talk about global warming.

        We heard from some participants that the speech was moving.

        The talk is on YouTube, and is worth watching. Doerr summarizes what large companies like Wal-Mart can do, what governments can do (citing California’s emission-capping legislation, but more, such as geothermal policy), what entrepreneurs can do (make "designer bugs" for biofuels, for example) and what citizens can do (sign up for carbon neutral programs, or otherwise help policy leaders).

        China will pump 22.9 gigatons of greenhouse emissions by 2050, up from 3.3 gigatons, which would be catastrophic. We can’t tell them to stop, because we’re emitting seven times what Chinese do on a per capital basis. In other words, we’ve got to start at home to take urgent measures, to set an example and start pushing urgent measures internationally.

        But we must work within the confines of a system that demands at least US$ 500M just to be competitive.

        There are just so many things you can say before contributions begin drying up.

        Then, you'll end up with a GOPer in the presidency, which you can bet won't be anywhere nearly as eco-friendly as a Democrat.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

        by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:28:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So... (0+ / 0-)

          Why do you think the problem will be solved with better politicians, without contesting the rationale I've offered above:

          They are caught in a conflict of interest.  The public must be shooed away with empty promises of action; and capital (which they really represent) must be placated with real-life inaction.

          Eh?

          "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

          by Cassiodorus on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:32:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Tired of Losing (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Cassiodorus

            CassioDorus, I believe that the problem will slowly be resolved.

            Frankly, I'm not certain I understand what position you want our Democratic nominee to take.

            Are you suggesting our nominee should embrace a platform that would alienate the financial community.

            If so, how do propose our nominee finance him/herself?

            Again, it's going to cost him/her about half a billion dollars to be competitive.

            I would prefer a candidate with whom I agree 70% of the time if he/she wins, than one with whom I agree 100%, but is not competitive.

            Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

            by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:39:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good question (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              yoduuuh do or do not

              Frankly, I'm not certain I understand what position you want our Democratic nominee to take.

              The Democratic nominee will take all the required positions regardless of what we want.  And it's worked: both Gore and Kerry won!  (Oh yeah, election fraud.  Whaddaya gonna do?)

              We need to build a base of leadership that is not dependent upon bourgeois democracy.  Our efforts are not the main criterion electing our slate: the deterioration of the Republican position is the main trend benefitting us at this time.

              "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

              by Cassiodorus on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 06:05:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Afraid you might be a voice in the wilderness (2+ / 0-)

                Tell Americans that they have to give up their ego-centric capitalistic provided comforts and I'm not sure you would have many takers.

                "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

                by Boisepoet on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 07:01:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Count Me In (2+ / 0-)

                  In a recent poll most Americans when asked what should be the minimum legal MPG for a car gave a figure higher than the car they presently drive. Similarly, americans wan't single-payer health care. We don't have the system we do because it reflects the popular will. Rather the popular will is shaped by the system we have. But whenever given an opportunity to consider solutions outside those considered officially reasonable within capitalism, Americans are quite receptive to socialist solutions, just like everyone else on earth. The idea that we are all just big greed machines is capitalist propoaganda that does not stand up to serious scrutiny. This is not to suggest that there isn't a huge battle of ideas before us, but rather that we shouldn't assume that battle to be lost before we've even fought it.

                  Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
                  "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

                  by Christopher Day on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 07:19:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  May be geographical or dependent upon (2+ / 0-)

                    socio-economic status. Nearly everyone I have worked with or served with tends to be enamored with their goods and the lifestyle it provides. Of course that has mainly been middle and upper middle class folks.

                    Any polls out there you can point me to regarding Americans' opinions on healthcare and moving towards a government single payer? When Clinton was looking at that in the early 90's, I thought the slap down came not just from the medical industry, but from the people and was one of the reasons the Repubs picked up congress in 94.  I myself would love to see healthcare de-coupled from employment. From a capitalist point of view, it would allow American businesses to compete better in the global marketplace.  

                    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

                    by Boisepoet on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 10:15:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  An excellent diary Cassiodorus! (as usual) (4+ / 0-)

    What actions do you now see as both viable and desireable as we go forward?

    "The truth shall set you free - but first it'll piss you off." Gloria Steinem

    Iraq Moratorium

    by One Pissed Off Liberal on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:15:09 PM PDT

  •  The hole in the argument is (7+ / 0-)

    that, although it certainly seems true that capitalism must expand to survive, that expansion bears a very nonlinear and complex relationship to resource use and to environmental damage.

    In many cases, an expanded economy (more goods and services) correlates with better environmental protections, improved water and air quality, etc. -- not to mention better population control and more social justice and equality.

    Is it possible for the economy to grow its way until sustainability? And is it possible to do so under capitalism? I doubt its provable one way or the other -- we have to develop and pursue sustainability strategies without knowing the answer to these questions.

    •  Who's "we"? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      yoduuuh do or do not

      we have to develop and pursue sustainability strategies

      I knew a guy who graduated from Pomona College to work for one of these corporate outfits that designed "sustainability strategies" for other corporations.  Last I saw him, he was amazed at the level of "greenwash" his clients were demanding.

      "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

      by Cassiodorus on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:31:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nevertheless, I feel that you're boxing (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Cassiodorus, skymutt

        the definition of capitalism so that it must oppose your ecological goals.

        Consider a closed system, where all the limits are obvious and known.  Now if someone in this system devises a way to do something, produce something, for a lower cost - using less resources - then they can become 'wealthier'. They have more of whatever it is the produce, which they can trade/sell for more of other things than they could before. To carry the connection to (idealized) capitalism further, to compete against others offering the same thing made by the old methods, the new method product would be 'cheaper' - offered in trade for fewer resources.

        With the model the term 'race for the bottom' means a push to consume fewer and fewer resources to do any given task, and to replace the using of scarce resources with more common ones. It ends when the ultimate efficiency possible is reached for everything that can be done, in whatever mix is set for desirability of differing products/services, and the population has reached the maximum that can be sustained with that mixed.

        The system, while closed in the strict sense, remains open so long as full saturation isn't reached. If the population is less the the maximum, each individual can receive more services and goods.  
        Old items wear out and need replacement. New concepts replace old ones, people use iPods instead of gramophones, Edison cylinder phonographs, or as was originally done visiting a phonograph parlor.

        •  Reinventing capitalism as a word game (2+ / 0-)

          With the model the term 'race for the bottom' means a push to consume fewer and fewer resources to do any given task

          Corporations don't "race to the bottom" -- they race for profits, as this is the fiduciary duty granted to management by stockholders.

          Nevertheless, I feel that you're boxing the definition of capitalism so that it must oppose your ecological goals.

          So can capitalism be saved for a dying planet?  The question of a dying planet, btw, is not a question of "ecological goals."  In rhetoric we have long maintained the difference between "questions of value" (i.e. are my ecological goals worthy) and "questions of fact" (i.e. is the planet dying).

          It ends when the ultimate efficiency possible is reached for everything that can be done

          BTW, the notion that efficiency can make up for reduced resource use in the transition to a sustainable society is contested by Saral Sarkar in a book which I reviewed earlier:

          ..as Fred Luks shows, if resource consumption in industrial societies has to go down in the next 50 years by a factor of ten and, at the same time, economic growth is to continue at the rate of 2 percent per annum, then resource productivity must rise by a factor of 27 (Luks 1997).  Is that a realistic hope? (151)

          "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

          by Cassiodorus on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 06:33:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So we're left with (2+ / 0-)

            getting together with the Russians and letting loose with all our nukes, making a lot of dust that cools the Earth and killing off civilization to prevent a reoccurrence of the problem.

            Or will you allow a reframing of the issues, a restating of capitalism that changes its focus to one of the alternative that it can function within.  There have been essays on how capitalism doesn't need continued growth, in the sense of consuming more resources, and least in the short to medium run.

            As for the planet dying, and tipping points - yes there's a fucking lot of extinctions going on, and more are going to occur with humans possibly being among them.  But the run away climate change isn't the Venusian style one, the Earth has been hotter and had much higher CO2 levels before.  It spent the majority of the last half billion years 2 to 6 degrees warmer than it is now, with CO2 level generally 3 times the current and for 200 million years 10 times the current level.  Yeah, it's going to be a mess, but the planet isn't likely to die; it's a bit self-centered to say that the planet is dead just because humans die off.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            •  I'll try to address your points (0+ / 0-)

              Or will you allow a reframing of the issues, a restating of capitalism that changes its focus to one of the alternative that it can function within.  There have been essays on how capitalism doesn't need continued growth, in the sense of consuming more resources, and least in the short to medium run.

              I'm trying to reframe this in terms of NOT saving capitalism for a dying planet, but rather in terms of saving a dying planet for something other than capitalism.

              Sure, Herman Daly has made a career out of suggesting a "steady-state economy," but when I met him personally, and discussed the issue with him back in '98 or thenabouts, he suggested that some form of eco-socialism was what was really going to happen.

              The problem with capitalism without growth is that, in the absence of growth, the accumulation of capital by the capitalists is someone else's loss.

              But the run away climate change isn't the Venusian style one, the Earth has been hotter and had much higher CO2 levels before.

              Right -- except that only during periods of mass extinction do the CO2 levels change this drastically.  As Coby Beck points out in his series "How To Talk to a Climate Change Skeptic," if this were a natural variation in CO2 levels, it would be occuring as a rate "ten times slower" than what we are currently witnessing.

              "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

              by Cassiodorus on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 02:26:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Externalities (2+ / 0-)

          The problem is that there is always a profit to be made by externalizing costs, that is to say passing them off on other people or the planet as whole. So long as profit is allowed to dictate economic decisions the logic will be one of competition and cancerous forms of growth that will kill the planet.

          Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
          "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

          by Christopher Day on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 07:00:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You say (0+ / 0-)

            The problem is that there is always a profit to be made by externalizing costs, that is to say passing them off on other people or the planet as whole.

            while I said

            Consider a closed system, where all the limits are obvious and known.

            A closed system means no externalizing.

            You've ignored what I said. The point is that by getting people to acknowledge the way nature works, you can get them to change their assumptions and the rules they play by.

            There's also always a profit to be made by killing people, invading other countries, taxing the population and giving that money to your friends through crooked deals, and scaring the population into supporting you.  Therefore so long as there is government, the logic will be one of telling the people you will protect them and getting them to give up their power to the state, and them using that power to abuse the people.

            If you're not willing to reexamine the rules and assumptions, you'll continue to play the game the same old way with the same results.

        •  If this were a free market economy like (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cassiodorus

          some point in the 80s, you could have a battle between Betamax and VHS as the best product. Maybe (I think Beta was better but Japanese so VHS won)

          Or 8 track versus cassette etc.

          But now the Congress of the FCC I forget which passes a law that says as of Jan09 there will be only HDV TV.  Well I am content with my current picture.  It will last another ten years proably.  But now I will have to either buy a new TV or a converter and if I am truly truly poor the government will buy my converter.  That is not choice that is government forcing sales of equipment that just maybe the majority do not give a wtf.

          Now what are we doing with the millions of so called unrecyclable material making all those TVs obsolete?

          One of my considerations of the quality of my life is what do I have now that I value very much that I did not have in 1955?  Only the internet.

          •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            yoduuuh do or do not

            I have to buy a new TV? Links please.

            Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
            "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

            by Christopher Day on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 08:29:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, there's the rub (0+ / 0-)

            But now the Congress of the FCC I forget which passes a law that says as of Jan09 there will be only HDV TV

            See, as any Libertarian Party type would tell you, the government stepping in and interfering.

            Congress passed a law on February 1, 2006, setting a final deadline for the DTV transition of February 17, 2009. Most television stations will continue broadcasting both analog and digital programming until February 17, 2009, when all analog broadcasting will stop.

            It's coming about because of pressure for some of the TV channels to be used for other applications, public safety and wireless communications.

          •  Beta Max (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            yoduuuh do or do not

            While it had higher video quality it had a couple of things going against it.

            The first was that the tapes were too short in duration. Football games and broadcast movies with commercials would not fit on a Beta tape, they would on VHS. This became of even greater after the 4 hour VHS machines came out.

            The second was that many companies did't like the way that Sony was playing the game. More than time times as many companies ued the VHS format as used Beta.

            •  I'm no techie Ijust like Beta and it recorded any (0+ / 0-)

              thing I ever wanted on TV including movies.  It may not have gone four hours but I do not remember wanting it to.  I think you are right about there was a huge resentment to Sony--they were also first with the technology and first on the market.

              Because of this type of shit when my husband's law firm went computer which was a huge initial expense in hardware, software, and staff training in the 80s, they liked the Mac but went with the IBM pc because their experience was the odds of the Mac surviving were not good.

              So best products and best ideas often do not play out because there is not an even playing field even in the market.  In the 50s it was taught that the US strength was replicating the balance in the government with business.  Checks and balances between capitol, labor, and management.  I am currently reading that while for some time labor has been no player; capitol is loosing its control over management.  The bigness and complexity is making oversight over high level CEO like Ken Lay  and others is almost impossible and capitol is being drained by special forces of management who keep their activities secret even from their boards.

              We are in an era of firsts.  Old money was always much less risk oriented and purpose oriented and more long term planning than this current crop of CEOs in the last two decades many like the bushes are in love with their power point presentations but short on history and experience in performance and production.

          •  So I won't be able to watch TV anymore? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            yoduuuh do or do not

            That sounds GREAT!

            "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

            by Cassiodorus on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 02:45:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  good diary (3+ / 0-)

    Classical economics prefers to ignore scarcity and thermodynamics, and says that once the price of oil goes up sufficiently, we'll be sufficiently incentivized to find more of it, or at least to come up with a replacement.  Forgive me for not believing in classical economics.  What's becoming more and more clear is that the global economy in its current incarnation is destroying the basic conditions that will enable our lives to continue.

  •  well (2+ / 0-)

    well we have seen all those futuristic apocalyptic type scifi movies, it appears the G8 and world leaders are setting up hem to become reality.

    Not sure if western civilization will end in our lifetime, but it will end. AN ugly end it will be. Resources are finite, hell a report just today says the US food supply is the lowest level in a century. One good drought and we are fucked faster than we could ever imagine.

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 06:00:24 PM PDT

    •  An example of Katrina and the Day After (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cassiodorus

      If you got as big a storm or a massive earthquake like they say is possible in yosimite and/or sacramento area the size of Katrina---

      Say tomorrow--

      the fresh water sources and electricity for five states are severely curtailed.

      In the South LA, San Diego, Phoenix which alone represents about 15million population in ten days there is no food, no water, and little medicine.

      Troop capacity police is about 50,000.  Like New Orleans how many would be protect my family first and the populace down the line?

      Half the national guard are in Iraq.

      We will also face fires out of control and pestilence that we have never known.  Hospitals were over whelmed in three days as were grocery stores and water facilities.  All the really rich left on the planes and no one else could really get out.

      And that is just one major storm in one area.  If like the Day After there were five world wide.  We will have lost a 100years and that is only if we manage to stay sane and follow sane leaders.

  •  I enjoy your passion for this subject, and (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, Cassiodorus

    don't necessarily disagree, but am waiting for someone to put forward serious proposals as to what system would replace allocation of resources as we know it.

    I believe that we will see serious shortages and upheavals in the current system over the next 20 years. The current increase in worldwide inflation, and the attempt by governmental entities to combat it(via increases in global interest rates) is because of tightening supplies of building materials and food.

    However, what I don't see emerging anytime soon is an alternative system that will placate the participants (people) as well as the institutions (corporations).    

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

    by Boisepoet on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 06:57:26 PM PDT

  •  "save" capitalism? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cassiodorus

    What an amusing proposition.

    Downright oxymoronic.

    Do I really have to explain it?

    don't always believe what you think...

    by claude on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 08:33:48 PM PDT

    •  They saved capitalism before (0+ / 0-)

      And perhaps this summer I will do a diary on it, when I get around to reading that portion of my personal library that deals with John Maynard Keynes...

      "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

      by Cassiodorus on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 02:30:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just watched Grace Lee Boggs on Bill Moyers (2+ / 0-)

    Strongly recommend everyone watch it. This diary reminded me of how she talked.

    Well? Shall we go? Yes, let's go. Defeat John McCain.

    by whenwego on Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 09:16:51 PM PDT

    •  I watched it too and was inspired to come back (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      whenwego, Cassiodorus

      here and write about it.  When I read what had been written since I was last here I realized I am more like Moyers than Boggs.  Moyers is pretty dispairing lately.  Boggs is hopeful.  Doesn't take much to make her hopeful.  At the rate her hopes are moving in changing people view of thinking which is her goals thru gardens private and community--we will all be dead.

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